X - Build Proposed 1.0

stevenD said:

(Copied from another thread)

I believe the front mids and tweeters are powered individually. The rears would be replaced with coaxials. Two 12" subs. No more center channel.
Front mids and tweets and rears, I still need details since I'm not sure if it's a 6 channel amp. Based on their configuration it seems this would fit the VX600/6i. The subs, I assuming I'll get the VX1000 since they mentioned 1000 watts.
I estimated the setup would be around 5 grand and it is.

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So to recap, what I think you are planning (please advise if wrong):
A) Front A Pillar Tweeters: Replace with Tweeters
B) Front Door Woofers: Replace with Mid-ranges (Woofers?)
C) Rear Door Woofers: Replace with Co-axials
D) Rear C Pillar Mid-ranges: Disconnected
E) Center Channel: Disconnected
F) OEM Subwoofer: Removed

Adding (All prices per Crutchfield.com):
JL VX600/6i, DSP Amp, 75wpc x 6 (Powering A), B), & C) actively using DSP, (Cost $1,200)
OPTION 1: JL VX1000/1i DSP Amp, 1000w x 1 @ 2ohms, (Cost $1,100) + Qty (2) JL Audio 12W6v3-D4 (Cost $1,460 both) = (OPTION 1 TOTAL: $2,560)
OPTION 2: JL VX600/1i DSP Amp, 600w x1 @ 2ohms, (Cost $850) + Qty (2) JL Audio 12W3v3-4 (Cost $620 both) = (OPTION 2 TOTAL: $1,470)
Front A Pillars & Doors: Focal PS 165FE (Tweeter & Woofer) (Cost $550)
Rear Doors: Focal PC 165FE (Coaxial) (Cost $450)

TOTAL PARTS OPTION 1: (Cost $4,760)
TOTAL PARTS OPTION 2: (Cost: $3,670)

Plus whatever the labor, installation, DSP tuning, wiring, sound deadening and custom fabricated double Sub box) - My guess would be $2,500 to $3,000 for a
Grand Total between $6,000 to $8,000!

Thoughts?

stevenD said:

So to recap, what I think you are planning (please advise if wrong):
A) Front A Pillar Tweeters: Replace with Tweeters
B) Front Door Woofers: Replace with Mid-ranges (Woofers?)
C) Rear Door Woofers: Replace with Co-axials
D) Rear C Pillar Mid-ranges: Disconnected
E) Center Channel: Disconnected
F) OEM Subwoofer: Removed

Adding (All prices per Crutchfield.com):
JL VX600/6i, DSP Amp, 75wpc x 6 (Powering A), B), & C) actively using DSP, (Cost $1,200)
OPTION 1: JL VX1000/1i DSP Amp, 1000w x 1 @ 2ohms, (Cost $1,100) + Qty (2) JL Audio 12W6v3-D4 (Cost $1,460 both) = (OPTION 1 TOTAL: $2,560)
OPTION 2: JL VX600/1i DSP Amp, 600w x1 @ 2ohms, (Cost $850) + Qty (2) JL Audio 12W3v3-4 (Cost $620 both) = (OPTION 2 TOTAL: $1,470)
Front A Pillars & Doors: Focal PS 165FE (Tweeter & Woofer) (Cost $550)
Rear Doors: Focal PC 165FE (Coaxial) (Cost $450)

TOTAL PARTS OPTION 1: (Cost $4,760)
TOTAL PARTS OPTION 2: (Cost: $3,670)

Plus whatever the labor, installation, DSP tuning, wiring, sound deadening and custom fabricated double Sub box) - My guess would be $2,500 to $3,000 for a
Grand Total between $6,000 to $8,000!

Thoughts?

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Stock head unit?

I've built with Focal, JL, and a few other premium brands in the past and what you have planned looks good to me, if you want that much low end. In my middle age and with some hearing loss from my musician, home theater, car audio home build days, that is more bass than I could use. I'd rather have strong mid bass drivers and a single 15" underneath them, but two 12" have advantages. Will you have any control over sub and fader levels?

If you are going to pay that much, make sure the shop has lots of examples of their work and knows a lot about proper sound deadening: 25-50% coverage of resonant panels and plastics with a butyl dampener, mass loaded vinyl as close to full coverage as possible preferred, closed cell foams, etc. The install and conditioning of the vehicles is as/more important as the gear put in it. I've always done my own builds except for advanced shapes of custom enclosures, and if I ever was going to spend 6K to 8K, it better have amazing sound staging, fidelity, control, and power with a really clean and lasting install.

Does the amplifiers and DSP include 1/2 or 1/3 band EQ options? Most car environments are not great for audio at all, made better by sound deadening, and made much closer to flat by a good EQ with enough bands.

Yes, for now I'm sticking with the stock head unit. This shop has been around for decades and I've had multiple car audio installs done by them. They're very thorough with the entire process. I spent an hour with them getting an overview of the Passport and will speak with them again when I drop off the vehicle for the install in a few weeks. Aside from the trunk lid, trunk floor, and doors have you found any other spots that required deadening and dampening? I can't seem to win the battle of rattle in my Accord. Tail lights, rear trunk lid trim, trunk latch, rear deck, rear c-pillar cover and I still can't eliminate it. I have to pull off the roof liner and fully deaden it still.
I'll find out more what the amps and built-in DSP include. They mention being able to fully tune the system for balanced sound with this setup versus going with the older Slash series amps. Yes, I will have control over sub and fader, but no more bass knob with the Slash.
I'm a bit frustrated with the stock head unit already. It only supports mp3, wma, and AAC codecs. Using itunes music player on my iphone, itunes sucks and doesn't handle lossless audio well. I've already been testing my phone to play tracks seamlessly with no luck. With the heavy investment now, I may have to consider replacing the stock unit and go back to Alpine.

XMan714 said:

Thanks for starting a separate thread for me. I don't have the details of my upgrade here's what I know.
Pioneer or Alpine component speakers will replace the front door and a-pillars. A JL Audio VX series amp to power them as 4 separate channels. I don't know if I'm losing the center channel or it will retain factory settings. The rear components will be replaced by standard coaxials and the rear surrounds will not be used. For all these speakers I'm not sure if this means it will be run by a single 6 channel amp or multiple but it's seems logical that it is a VX 600/6. I also will be running two 12T JL Audio subs in a custom enclosure where the spare tire and factory sub are. I believe I'll have that powered by a JL Audio VX1000 amp. I'm hoping the amps and enclosure will all be built so the factory cover can be used. As long as I can have the spare tire on top in the trunk, I'm fine. I want the system to be hidden.
Overall your calculations are correct.

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My thoughts overlap with strorm303, and that is you seem to have way more Bass, than QUALITY Mid-range, making the overall system unbalanced.

Over on the DIYMobile site, they talk about having a balanced system. A (ridiculous) example would be having a $14k Audison HV Venti Amp powering $139 Kenwood coaxials or having a hi-performance V-8 with a 2-bbl carb. My concern is that you have very high-quality Amps, ($2,300 worth) powering mid-quality/low cost component speakers!

Do you know the part numbers of the Alpine /Pioneer speakers? Looking on Crutchfield, I see Alpine has a component set selling for $500/pair and several other Alpine/Pioneers selling for $300/pair. I also understand you may have some brand-loyalty to them, but there are much better speakers available out there (Focal, Morel, Hertz, JL Audio, AudioFrog, etc.). And I do not think that the magic of DSP tuning will be able to make-up the difference between having two 12-Subs and sub-par Front/Rear speakers, in-fact you will probably end up upgrading them not long afterwards!

Maybe you don't need your Sub Amp to have DSP capabilities? Maybe you just have it dialed in with the adjustments on the Mono Amp itself(?)
If so, I would investigate moving to a JL JD1000/1 ($390) or JL RD1000/1 ($550), both put out 1000w and putting the money saved by not going with the JL VX1000/1i ($1,100) into getting higher quality Component Speakers!

Also, I know the common trend is to have better speakers in the Front and do Coaxials in the Rear, but since the locations are there already, I opted to put the same speakers Front & Rear, that way the exact same mid-bass and highs are coming from ALL locations (we'll see how this shakes out after my upcoming install).

Also I plan to leave my center channel connected to the factory amp and just turn it all the way down, IronChef actually put in a switch to turn it on or off, which is a great idea!

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays...!

I never feel like I have enough bass. I dj House music so having bass forward music is what I want. Of course within reason, I understand the concerns with the lack of balance if I don't get mids and tweeters that best match the 12T subs. Just looking at Alpine speakers, the S series 6.5 components and coaxials are 80 watts rms which likely would be the ones if they said "standard" speakers. If by chance they went up to the R series I'd be surprised. I still have to go back and give them a listen because everything is just on paper right now. I've spent the last several days updating my iphone, adding lossless mixes that I'll use to audition the speakers. I don't have loyalty to Alpine speakers or Pioneer so listening is the true test. The shop has Focals, Hertz, Pioneer, Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, Kenwood Exelon. There is definitely much work to do still and I won't be taking shortcuts with this install. From your thread you said you're using the Focal 165AS. To me adding about $200 more to jump to Focals (assuming I like the sound overall but definitely going to beat out standard Alpines) it would be worth it. Any opinions on Hertz?

Thanks for the advice!

XMan714 said:

I never feel like I have enough bass. I dj House music so having bass forward music is what I want. Of course within reason, I understand the concerns with the lack of balance if I don't get mids and tweeters that best match the 12T subs. Just looking at Alpine speakers, the S series 6.5 components and coaxials are 80 watts rms which likely would be the ones if they said "standard" speakers. If by chance they went up to the R series I'd be surprised. I still have to go back and give them a listen because everything is just on paper right now. I've spent the last several days updating my iphone, adding lossless mixes that I'll use to audition the speakers. I don't have loyalty to Alpine speakers or Pioneer so listening is the true test. The shop has Focals, Hertz, Pioneer, Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, Kenwood Exelon. There is definitely much work to do still and I won't be taking shortcuts with this install. From your thread you said you're using the Focal 165AS. To me adding about $200 more to jump to Focals (assuming I like the sound overall but definitely going to beat out standard Alpines) it would be worth it. Any opinions on Hertz?
Thanks for the advice!

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Howdy,

I had never owned Focals before and when an Installation shop recommended them, I went and did some internet research (including Crutchfield reviews) and found them super-highly regarded, so I went for them and am super happy, even though they are nowhere near the top of the line (Focal Utopias @ $2k/pr), so yeah I can and do recommend them as well, here is a place that rates them super high:


Next, Hertz is a brand owned by the same parent company that owns Audison, which is the brand DSP Amp & Sub I am going with, so that is a good thing, as they are all (supposedly) well made and high-end stuff. A quick look at Crutchfield shows a lot of Hertz speakers going up to $1,400/pr. But they have a sale on some that look like they might be a great fit for you. The Hertz MPK 165.3 Pro is current at $349/pair, which is a $170 discount, read the specs below:

At that price, I would get two sets ($698) and use the same speakers front and back, however with a 6-Channel amp, you would need to use the Passive Crossovers supplied with the Rear speakers (this is fine and is what I plan to do with my Focals) and still use the DSP to adjust both sets in perfectly!

But if you still want to disconnect your rear Mid/Tweeters in the C-Pillars; Hertz makes a matching Coaxial - MPX 165.3 Pro, which have the same basic specs and are on sale for $249/pair, which is a $100 discount! Going this route would bring your speakers cost to $598!

The great thing about Hertz (and Audison) is they have a 2-year warranty, when the industry standard is 1-year, this, to me proves they have confidence in the quality of their products.

In closing, the Hertz MPX 165.3 Pro (reg. price $519) may very well sound better than the Focal Performance 165AS (reg. price $379) and they handle more power! If your installer has both and you can hear & compare - even better! I would see if you can listen locally to the above Hertz speakers and if your installer can't/won't match the Crutchfield price, just buy it yourself and carry them into the Shop.

Cheers!

One more thing: The Audison APF 8.9 Amp (that I am getting) is an 8 channel DSP Amp, that puts out 85wpc and costs the same (actually I'm getting mine for $1170). It also has a 9th channel output which can be used to "DSP" a Sub Amp. So if you did go with the Hertz Components Front & Rear, you could use the internal Active crossovers in the Amp for all 8 of your speakers and would not need a Sub Amp with DSP, as the Sub could be adjusted TOGETHER, not seperately as is the case with the two JX Amps.

Audison APF 8.9 Link: AP F8.9 bit-24V | Audison - car audio processors, amplifiers and speakers

So instead of the two JX Amps at $2,300, the Audison APF 8,9 and a JL RD1000/1 would cost about $1,670 - savings of $630!

And $1,670 plus two pair of MPK 165.3 Pro ($598) you would be at $2,368, plus installation and other goodies, you should easily be able to say under $5k (and might be closer to $4k) with a better sounding system with more power!

Happy Holidays...