SE SQ Passport Build 2.0 & 3.0 (Updated 3-27-21)

LightlySalted said:

Question for you StevenD: Do you find the need to do any high-level to low-level conversion coming out of the factory amp and into your AP F8.9?

I have decided to use the same amp for a 3-way active front stage (bridged to the door speaker, separate direct feeds to the tweeters and mid-bass) with the DSP 9th channel out to an Audison APBX8 AS2 that fits in the same space as the factory sub. Then I watched the Five Star Car Stereo guys last evening and all the talk was about high-level to low-level converters to avoid sending too much power to the high-level input on the amp. I've seen your analysis of the likely power outputs for the 540-watt factory amp and wondered if the output needed to be tamed a bit before going into your Forza? I'm also using the lesser AP 8.9 for the rears and center with no sub out, to retain channel-for-channel amplification and expect to initially use the presets to set up the DSP until I hear it and make manual mods. Thanks for any info!
Ed

Click to expand...

Hello Ed and welcome! It's great to have another person upgrading their Passport stereo system here to bounce things off of. And it's equally cool that you are planning on using the same Amp (as me). Your post has me thinking in multiple directions, so let's dig in...

First off, I am pretty sure that the shop that did my install (An authorized Audison retailer) used the high-level inputs. I assume they used the Audison software to de-equalize the signals and restore the full/need frequencies for each line-feed. I've barely had it two weeks but it sounds crystal clear.

Continuing with that, I watch tons of YouTube car stereo-related videos and very much enjoy the Five star guys and the Car Audio Fabrication guy. But I really don't know enough about the differences. limitations, or advantages between low & high level inputs to be any help. Although obviously it would be best to pull the signal BEFORE it even gets to the OEM amp, but I don't think the power being outputted from it effects the Audison anyway. I did ask my installed about this prior and he seemed like using the high-levels would not be an issue!

Audison-USA is located in irvine, Calif. (not far from me), and I have called them several times (both Sales & Technical) and they were readily available and helpful with my questions/issues, so I'd given them a call if you need to..

I wanted to go 3-way as well, I was planning on going with the Audison TH Thesis Orchestra II but I changed my mind for a few reasons; (1) I wanted to keep a stock/OEM look, and not do a custom (and expensive) install of the Mids and Tweeters in the A-Pillar (*see note at bottom). (2) Then I thought of placing the Mids in the flat area of the upper doors, but had several installers so that that would not be optimum and (the sound) would be obstructed by the steering wheel and possibly the passengers legs. (3) I was told by Audison and a guy I found on-line who owns them, that the woofer needs more power than (85w) and thus bridging would be needed (as you have planned) and I did not want to lose two channels from the Amp. I was able to listen to the Audison TH Thesis Coro (2-ways) and they sounded awesome, but again would need to dedicate four amp channels to power them.

I should also add, that I currently have two sets Focal AS 165 Performance 2-ways, the front ones are run active thru the AP F8.9 and the rears are run passive using the Focal crossovers. This set-up sounds REALLY really good and would impress the hell out of most people. But I find the tweeters overly bright and they could not (or were not) able to be corrected by the Audison DSP software.

So my reasoning evolved into: If the current ($380) Focals sound "this" good, I decided to stay with 2-ways and moving up to the Focal Utopia 165W-XP - Note: I would NOT need to bridge the Amp, in fact since these are 2-ohm speakers, my amp will be sending 130W to them (instead of the 85w @ 4-ohms)! And the tweeters are not overly bright according to everything I've researched. Not wanting to leave the rear speakers, I have decided to upgrade them to the Focal ES 165 KX2, which are also 2-ohm (woofers).

My AP F8.9 will have one of each of the eight channels dedicated (and DSP'd) to one speaker each! Then I'm going to buy an Audison SR1.500 mono Amp to plug into the 9th channel and the 500w @ 4-ohms will power my sub. Two Amps FULLY integrated into one DSP profile!

I left the Center Channel alone and connected to the OEM amp - and have it turned down in the settings.

Now back to you and your plans, what speakers are you looking to get? (front & rear)
Where/how are you planning to mount your Midranges?
Tweeters in the OEM location?
How many Amps do you plan on using?
I guess I don't understand using the AP 8.9 in the rear and what it is going to drive?

As far as the Audison APBX8 AS2, amplified Sub/box; do you know if it will fit (my guess is NO)? I was told that the main OEM Amp is located near or connected to the OEM sub, so be very careful how you approach that. I wanted them to remove it and install my Amp there but they said they could not and put it under the rear side-walls.

*There is a guy on here: IronChef, who has done some very nice and major upgrades to his Passport, including going with a 3-way front stage, hes has several threads (that you probably saw) about his build and his rework of the existing Subwoofer (with an Alpine). I suggest you contact him (using Conversations) as he may have some advise and has some components that you can use in your build (as he told me they are for sale).

Hope that helps, let's keep talking...

Here are my front Tweeters:



They sound amazing and are still in their "break-in" period...

The installers did a masterful job mounting them in the OEM A-Pillar locations, even though on Crutchfeild it says they will not fit...!

On March, 27, 2021 completed Build 3.0

AMPS:
Audison AP F8.9 (8 channel, 85wpc @ 4ohm / 130wpc @ 2ohms)
Audison AP FD1 (500w X 1 @ 4ohm)

FRONT SPEAKERS:
Focal Utopia TBXP Tweeters (A-Pillars)
Focal Utopia 165W-XP Woofers (Doors)

REAR SPEAKERS:
Audison Thesis Violino II 1.5 Tweeters (C-Pillars)
Focal Utopia 165W-XP Woofers (Doors)

SUBWOOFER:
Audison APS 8D 8" Sub (in very rear side panel - custom enclosure)

CONTROLER:
Audison DRC MP (You'll need this!)



It sounds amazing, enjoying more than words can properly convey. I am going to do one more "DSP Retune" in about a month, after all the speakers have sufficiently burned in.

REAR Tweeters: (well actually only one):

stevenD said:

Hello Ed and welcome! It's great to have another person upgrading their Passport stereo system here to bounce things off of. And it's equally cool that you are planning on using the same Amp (as me). Your post has me thinking in multiple directions, so let's dig in...

First off, I am pretty sure that the shop that did my install (An authorized Audison retailer) used the high-level inputs. I assume they used the Audison software to de-equalize the signals and restore the full/need frequencies for each line-feed. I've barely had it two weeks, but it sounds crystal clear.

Continuing with that, I watch tons of YouTube car stereo-related videos and very much enjoy the Five star guys and the Car Audio Fabrication guy. But I really don't know enough about the differences. limitations, or advantages between low & high level inputs to be any help. Although obviously it would be best to pull the signal BEFORE it even gets to the OEM amp, but I don't think the power being outputted from it effects the Audison anyway. I did ask my installed about this prior and he seemed like using the high-levels would not be an issue!

Audison-USA is located in irvine, Calif. (not far from me), and I have called them several times (both Sales & Technical) and they were readily available and helpful with my questions/issues, so I'd given them a call if you need to..

I wanted to go 3-way as well, I was planning on going with the Audison TH Thesis Orchestra II but I changed my mind for a few reasons; (1) I wanted to keep a stock/OEM look, and not do a custom (and expensive) install of the Mids and Tweeters in the A-Pillar (*see note at bottom). (2) Then I thought of placing the Mids in the flat area of the upper doors, but had several installers so that that would not be optimum and (the sound) would be obstructed by the steering wheel and possibly the passengers legs. (3) I was told by Audison and a guy I found on-line who owns them, that the woofer needs more power than (85w) and thus bridging would be needed (as you have planned) and I did not want to lose two channels from the Amp. I was able to listen to the Audison TH Thesis Coro (2-ways) and they sounded awesome, but again would need to dedicate four amp channels to power them.

I should also add, that I currently have two sets Focal AS 165 Performance 2-ways, the front ones are run active thru the AP F8.9 and the rears are run passive using the Focal crossovers. This set-up sounds REALLY really good and would impress the hell out of most people. But I find the tweeters overly bright and they could not (or were not) able to be corrected by the Audison DSP software.

So my reasoning evolved into: If the current ($380) Focals sound "this" good, I decided to stay with 2-ways and moving up to the Focal Utopia 165W-XP - Note: I would NOT need to bridge the Amp, in fact since these are 2-ohm speakers, my amp will be sending 130W to them (instead of the 85w @ 4-ohms)! And the tweeters are not overly bright according to everything I've researched. Not wanting to leave the rear speakers, I have decided to upgrade them to the Focal ES 165 KX2, which are also 2-ohm (woofers).

My AP F8.9 will have one of each of the eight channels dedicated (and DSP'd) to one speaker each! Then I'm going to buy an Audison SR1.500 mono Amp to plug into the 9th channel and the 500w @ 4-ohms will power my sub. Two Amps FULLY integrated into one DSP profile!

I left the Center Channel alone and connected to the OEM amp - and have it turned down in the settings.

Now back to you and your plans, what speakers are you looking to get? (front & rear)
Where/how are you planning to mount your Midranges?
Tweeters in the OEM location?
How many Amps do you plan on using?
I guess I don't understand using the AP 8.9 in the rear and what it is going to drive?

As far as the Audison APBX8 AS2, amplified Sub/box; do you know if it will fit (my guess is NO)? I was told that the main OEM Amp is located near or connected to the OEM sub, so be very careful how you approach that. I wanted them to remove it and install my Amp there but they said they could not and put it under the rear side-walls.

*There is a guy on here: IronChef, who has done some very nice and major upgrades to his Passport, including going with a 3-way front stage, hes has several threads (that you probably saw) about his build and his rework of the existing Subwoofer (with an Alpine). I suggest you contact him (using Conversations) as he may have some advise and has some components that you can use in your build (as he told me they are for sale).

Hope that helps, let's keep talking...

Click to expand...

Hey StevenD,

Thanks for your insights!

I'm a tax guy so I've been busy with other things. This is my white space so the dreary days of tax season don't beat me up too much. And I couldn't help but post why the second AP 8.9 in my proposed build. Below is the in-out for the system I'm building:

AP F8.9
High-level Source In
Ch 1----White (A) + / White Blk- ---- Left Front Woofer (OEM Amp Red+ / Green-)
Ch 2----Gray (B) + / Gray Blk- ---- Right Front Woofer (OEM Amp Gray+ / Brown-)
Ch 3----Green (C) + / Green Blk- ---- Left Front Tweeter (OEM Amp White+ / Tan-)
Ch 4----Violet (D) + / Violet Blk- ---- Right Front Tweeter (OEM Amp Purple+ / Yellow-)
Ch 5----Cyan (E) + / Cyan Blk- ---- Left Subwoofer (OEM Amp Red+ / White-)
Ch 6----Orange (F) + / Orange Blk- ---- Right Subwoofer (OEM Amp Brown+ / Gray-)

Speaker Out
Channel 1---White (E) + / White Blk NULL ---- [email protected]Ω to ML 1800.3 @ Left Front Door (White+ / Black-)
Channel 2---White (F) NULL / White Blk- --------Bridge to Ch1 to make [email protected]Ω

Channel 3----White (A) + / White Blk NULL ---- [email protected]Ω to ML 1800.3 @ Right Front Door (Gray+ / Black-)
Channel 4---White (B) NULL / White Blk- --------Bridge to Ch3 to make [email protected]Ω

Channel 5----White (C) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 700.3 @ Left A-Pillar (White/Blue+ / Black-)
Channel 6----White (D) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 700.3 @ Right A-Pillar (Gray/Blue+ / Black-)
Channel 7----White (G) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 280.3 @ Left Sail Panel (White/Red+ / Black-)
Channel 8----White (H) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 280.3 @ Right Sail Panel (Gray/Red+ / Black-)

Channel 9----Stinger 9000 RCA to splitter out to APBX 8 AS2 amplified sub with [email protected]Ω 500W Peak from a 386 (15.2) x 158 (6.22) x 298 (11.73) carpet covered box

AP 8.9
High-level Source In
Ch 1----White (A) + / White Blk- ---- Left Rear Woofer (OEM Amp Gray+ / Brown-)
Ch 2----Gray (B) + / Gray Blk- ---- Right Rear Woofer (OEM Amp Pink+ / Blue-)
Ch 3----Green (C) + / Green Blk- ---- Left Rear Tweeter (OEM Amp Red+ / Green-)
Ch 4----Violet (D) + / Violet Blk- ---- Right Rear Tweeter (OEM Amp Brown+ / Gray-)
Ch 5----Cyan (E) + / Cyan Blk- ---- Left Split Center (OEM Amp Tan+ / Lt Green-)
Ch 6----Orange (F) + / Orange Blk- ---- Right Split Center (OEM Amp Tan+ / Lt Green-)

Speaker Out
Channel 1---White (E) + / White Blk NULL ---- 1[email protected]Ω to ML 1650.3 @ Left Rear Door (Green+ / Black-)
Channel 2---White (F) NULL / White Blk- --------Bridge to Ch1 to make [email protected]Ω

Channel 3----White (A) + / White Blk NULL ---- [email protected]Ω to ML 1650.3 @ Right Rear Door Purple+ / Black-)
Channel 4---White (B) NULL / White Blk- --------Bridge to Ch3 to make [email protected]Ω

Channel 5----White (C) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 700.3 @ Left D-Pillar (Green/Red+ / Black-)
Channel 6----White (D) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to ML 700.3 @ Right D-Pillar (Purple/Red+ / Black-)
Channel 7----White (G) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to MP 70.3 @ Center Panel (White/Blue+ / Black-)
Channel 8----White (H) + / White Blk- ----- [email protected]Ω to HSK 28.3 @ Center Panel (Gray/Red+ / Black-)

The ML 1800.3 are 7" drivers so they'll require some effort and fabrication to get into the doors. The ML 280.3 will be mounted to the sail panel where the mirror is mounted on each door and they are small and thin enough to fit with minimal fabrication. The ML 700.3 in the front will be mounted in pods from VALICAR-STUTTGART with the mount through the same hole as the factory tweeters are mounted in. Likewise, the ML 700.3 in the rear will be mounted in the same pods in the alcove formed in the D-pillar. The MP 70.3 fits perfectly in the existing Center panel while I'll need to fabricate a mount for the HSK 28.3 next to it on the driver side. The factory center speaker is ever so slightly biased toward the drinker side.

Using the two DSP Amps, every speaker's output is individually adjustable through the DSP. Choosing the AP 8.9 for the rear stage and the center channel keeps the rear from overpowering the front and helps with the price of the system. The processor in the AP F8.9 is higher resolution than the one for the AP 8.9, so the signal to the sub should be more clear.

I'm also implementing a second audio source through the Toslink through an Audison C2O to the AP F8.9 to run optical from a digital player (probably my iPhone, but I'm still looking). That would provide sound on only the front stage with sub. The rear stage would completely drop out, but I'm also looking at splitting the Toslink signal to the AP 8.9 if the difference in resolution for the two optical ports doesn't cloud it up. The digital resolution of the AP F8.9 is maxed at 192 kHz / 24 bit, equal to the output of the C2O, whereas the AP 8.9 is maxed at 96 kHz/24 bit. I will have to look into it more.

The two DRC MP controllers for the AP F8.9 and AP 8.9 will be mounted left of the steering column in the lower dash. They are small and unobtrusive. The front will be on the bulge of the part while the rear will be directly under it but below the bulge. While this build will allow the factory fader, balance, center level, and subwoofer level, it will be nice to have access to those functions through the more direct control of the DRC MP. This build should also allow the factory Neural system to continue to play, but if not, I believe the sound will still be good.

I have purchased replacement interior panels for everything I'm modifying so I can return the car to the factory look when I sell it.

The dimensions of the APBX 8 AS2 fit perfectly in the space currently occupied by the factory sub, although I will need to fabricate supports to accommodate the curvature of the floorpan under the sub.

Critical to the build is the interface between the head unit and the two aftermarket amps. The current plan is to route through the factory amp and to the high-level inputs on the aftermarket amps, as shown above. If our friends at MetraOnline/AXXESS or iData-Maestro would create a low-level out interface I'd consider using it. But alas, they have not.

If you see any holes in this, please let me know! I'll try to be better and volleying the conversation as tax time ends.

LightlySalted said:

Hey StevenD,

Thanks for your insights!

I'm a tax guy so I've been busy with other things. This is my white space so the dreary days of tax season don't beat me up too much. And I couldn't help but post why the second AP 8.9 in my proposed build. Below is the in-out for the system I'm building:

Channel 9----Stinger 9000 RCA to splitter out to APBX 8 AS2 amplified sub with [email protected]Ω 500W Peak from a 386 (15.2) x 158 (6.22) x 298 (11.73) carpet covered box

AP 8.9

The ML 1800.3 are 7" drivers so they'll require some effort and fabrication to get into the doors. The ML 280.3 will be mounted to the sail panel where the mirror is mounted on each door and they are small and thin enough to fit with minimal fabrication. The ML 700.3 in the front will be mounted in pods from VALICAR-STUTTGART with the mount through the same hole as the factory tweeters are mounted in. Likewise, the ML 700.3 in the rear will be mounted in the same pods in the alcove formed in the D-pillar. The MP 70.3 fits perfectly in the existing Center panel while I'll need to fabricate a mount for the HSK 28.3 next to it on the driver side. The factory center speaker is ever so slightly biased toward the drinker side.

Using the two DSP Amps, every speaker's output is individually adjustable through the DSP. Choosing the AP 8.9 for the rear stage and the center channel keeps the rear from overpowering the front and helps with the price of the system. The processor in the AP F8.9 is higher resolution than the one for the AP 8.9, so the signal to the sub should be more clear.

I'm also implementing a second audio source through the Toslink through an Audison C2O to the AP F8.9 to run optical from a digital player (probably my iPhone, but I'm still looking). That would provide sound on only the front stage with sub. The rear stage would completely drop out, but I'm also looking at splitting the Toslink signal to the AP 8.9 if the difference in resolution for the two optical ports doesn't cloud it up. The digital resolution of the AP F8.9 is maxed at 192 kHz / 24 bit, equal to the output of the C2O, whereas the AP 8.9 is maxed at 96 kHz/24 bit. I will have to look into it more.

The two DRC MP controllers for the AP F8.9 and AP 8.9 will be mounted left of the steering column in the lower dash. They are small and unobtrusive. The front will be on the bulge of the part while the rear will be directly under it but below the bulge. While this build will allow the factory fader, balance, center level, and subwoofer level, it will be nice to have access to those functions through the more direct control of the DRC MP. This build should also allow the factory Neural system to continue to play, but if not, I believe the sound will still be good.

I have purchased replacement interior panels for everything I'm modifying so I can return the car to the factory look when I sell it.

The dimensions of the APBX 8 AS2 fit perfectly in the space currently occupied by the factory sub, although I will need to fabricate supports to accommodate the curvature of the floorpan under the sub.

Critical to the build is the interface between the head unit and the two aftermarket amps. The current plan is to route through the factory amp and to the high-level inputs on the aftermarket amps, as shown above. If our friends at MetraOnline/AXXESS or iData-Maestro would create a low-level out interface I'd consider using it. But alas, they have not.

If you see any holes in this, please let me know! I'll try to be better and volleying the conversation as tax time ends.

Click to expand...

First off, it's awesome to talk with another SQ person on here! And it sounds like you have it well planned out, and may be more advanced than me with your SQ IQ (lol).

You have a great set up, however, I have some thoughts that may save you some time, money and headaches. (I'll number them for our future conversations.)

1. First, I would not bother with replacing the Center Channel Speaker, I just left mine connected to the OEM Amp, Iron Chef (who did an awesome SQ setup in his Passport said he had a devil of a time swapping out the center channel speaker and then put a switch to it to turn it off/on. I have mine turned ALL the way down and everything is fine. This would save you money, time, and a dedicated amp channel.

2. Next, I would NOT try to replace or remove the factory Sub, my original plan was to remove it and stack my amps in there, but my installed (Newport Sound in Costa Mesa Ca.) found that (either) the factory amp is located in the same area OR the sub wiring is tied to the OEM amp making a real problem to tank it out. So BOTH of my amps are mounted behind the rear passenger side quarter panels. Leaving the sub alone will be a HUGE plus should you want to restore the vehicle back to its original condition.

3. I think you can get by just fine with the AP F8.9 ONLY! I think that adding the AP 8.9, just overcomplicates your build with NO real pay off in improved sound! Here's what I was going to do: (a) two channels each to your front Tweeters, Mids and Woofers and two channels to the rear speakers - I did not see where you said what speakers you plan on for the rear (If you did please tell me - again) - I was going to use the Focal ES165 KX2 -which are 2 ohms, so your AP F8.9 will be sending 130w to them. Now you will need to use the Focal supplier crossovers. Now, I know what you are thinking, but I invested this previously and you can too - even though you will not have individual control over the rear speakers, you will be able to perfectly adjust them, by using the onbaord crossover settings, the DSP settings and the Gain on the amp for those channels. Remember the rear speakers are just fill, and having high-quality fill is great, you can still Fade them with the Audison DRC MP Controler.

4. So you are now down to one amp, a more simplifies set up and no two Controllers to mess with.

5. Now to the sub woofer, you can connect your amplified sub to the AP F8.9 amp and DSP tune it, no problem/ The onyly problem is where to mount it, I'd put it in the rear against either of the quarter panels and attach some straps that can easily be disconnected if you want to remove the sub for hauling stuff.

6. I have no idea of any of the wiring details.

7. You are going to sound deaden at least the doors right?

8. For your front stage, I think those pods look kinda cool and high tech, I was considering them when I was going to do Thesis Tweeters and Mids the the front, but latter just went 2-way instead. On thought, since you are going the Pod route, have you considered doing the Tweets and the Mids in Pods (mounted to the A-Pillar? Again less intrusive if/when you go back to stock and having there near each other will help direct the sound where you want, not firing off to the left and right.

9. The place you are ordering your pods from have my 2-sets (4 pods total) for $200 (plus shipping) which was WAY less than doing a custom A-Pillar mode ($1500-$2500) ouch! Also everyone says they are SUPER slow so make sure you order early or pay the expedite fee, depending on when you need it.

10. Your input ideas sound cool, I just opted for the Honda CD player and it sounds pretty awesome to me.

11. What is your estimated time frame for completion?

I think that's about it, if if left anything out or you want to discuss further, you know where to find me...