[NorthernPassport]

I have a question related to the recommended tongue loads in the Passport Manual. Apologies if this has been covered before, I did search the forums but didn't find what I was looking for.

I have a 2019 AWD Touring w/ ATF cooler. The door sticker lists a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 5,291 lbs and indicates the maximum allowable weight of cargo and occupants is 948 lbs. The manual states that the Maximum Load Limit (i.e. 948 lbs) "includes the total weight of all occupants, cargo, and accessories, and the tongue load if you are towing a trailer." The manual also provides the following table of suggested tongue weights:

The manual states on the preceding page:

So, with 5 occupants and the max permitted tongue load my total payload would be 5*(150+17.6) + 425 = 1,263 lbs. This exceeds the door sticker value by 315 lbs!

Assuming the published curb weight of 4,224 lbs, adding this payload value of 1,263 lbs results in a total combined weight of 5,487 lbs - this scenario exceeds the GVWR of my Passport by 196 lbs!

These seem like large discrepancies, can anyone comment on how these tongue loads were computed or why Honda is suggesting that users can exceed the GVWR when towing a trailer?

 

[Wrascal]

I'm too tired to verify your numbers but I'll try to simplify it.

Your Passport curb weight is 4224#, the max amount its suspension/ tires/ axles / brakes can support on the road is 5291#. The weight of people, and their cargo, will subtract from that difference. Don't forget your fuel tank, full is heavier than empty.

It all quickly adds up, leaving very little allowance for the tongue weight of a trailer (as a minimum allow 10% of its total loaded weight).

Hondas' are marketed as mighty vehicles - but the truth is (regardless of a tranny cooler - another weight robbing accessory NOT included in your original curb number) they're very poor for towing.

So now the question comes down to how much over are you going to load it? How far will you tow it? How fast will you push it?

I wouldn't hesitate to pull an additional (several) hundreds of pounds, at slow / prudent speeds - for a few in-town miles, but do consider you Don't have stronger brakes so longer stopping distances will be required.

Me. I'd never do this on the freeways.

 

[ballisticexchris]

Hondas' are marketed as mighty vehicles - but the truth is (regardless of a tranny cooler - another weight robbing accessory NOT included in your original curb number) they're very poor for towing.

This!! Well stated Sir!!

I might add the only way to make sure you are legal is to have your rig ready to travel weighed at each axle at the scale. And I highly recommend a weight distributing hitch for something as small as our Passports.

 

[CC_Marauder]

For those that are interested, the AWD, full trailer hitch equipped models, meaning has the transmission cooler install as well, have a 500# maximum tongue weight (w/ 2 person car occupancy, it goes down per added passenger).

You never want to approach the max tongue weight in your endeavors. The PP in particular. Ever.

Additionally, if you intend to tow over 3k#, for the safety sake of everyone around you, you'll need to install and use a trailer brake.

 

[ares]

While I don't really have anything to tow now, I was hoping to rent some later and was already looking at articles for best under 3000# rigs.

Guess it's primitive camping for now.

 

[NorthernPassport]

Thanks Wrascal, totally agree. I have calculated my towing capacity and my payload capacity directly for my use case based on my families weight and load-out. I am still within both the GVWR of the Passport and the GCWR of the combined vehicle and trailer, however, likely beyond what some would consider safe based on comments in this forum. Accordingly, I checked my math against the values reported in the manual (which I was relying upon when we purchased the trailer...).

I probably should have stated my concerns more directly, I believe the recommended tongue weights in the manual for 2019-2021 AWD Passports are wrong. What the manual is attempting to do is offer the user some insight into how the towing and payload capacities of the vehicle change when adding weight to the vehicle. Conceptually, the user can compute these values from the curb weight and the sticker GVWR (Honda's own rating tables seem to ignore the Maximum Load Limit provided on the sticker and in the manual.) See the following table for 2019 to 2021 Elite Passports: Estimated Payload and the Reported Allowable Tongue Weight are from the manual, Total Payload is the sum of these values and the Total Vehicle Weight is the sum of the Curb Weight and the Total Payload. The GVWR of the vehicle is exceeded for the 4 and 5 occupant scenarios.

Consider the same calculations for the 2019 Honda Pilot below. As the number of occupants increases, the allowable tongue weight begins to drop to keep the Total Vehicle Weight below the GVWR.

The proof here for me is the revised towing table in the 2022 and 2023 Passport manual. The 2022 Passport received a bump in GVWR of 50 kg (110 lbs), when the table was revised the recommended tongue weights for the 4 and 5 occupant scenarios were downrated to keep the total vehicle weight below GVWR.

Conclusion: Unless I've missed something in my math, the recommended tongue weights in the manual for 2019-2021 AWD Passports are wrong for the 4 and 5 occupant scenarios or Honda is comfortable with a higher GVWR than what is reported on the sticker. I am inclined to trust the sticker rating over the manual. I am still suspicious of my math and assumptions, I am surprised Honda would make an error like this given the potential liabilities that might arise.

Revised Calcs & Take-Home: I've provided revised tongue weights for 2019-2021 Elite PP's below. I agree with everything above but would suggest that 2019-2021 Passport owners who are shopping for trailers compute their own payload and towing capacities based on their specific loading cases.

Also note, the Passport's ability to tow a trailer is limited by it's weight rating NOT it's tow rating. A 5000 lbs trailer requires 10-15% of its weight to be sitting on the hitch for safe towing (i.e. 500-750 lbs), this will exceed the GVWR of the Passport under all but the lightest of cargo scenarios. I've also included the maximum trailer load limits above based on hitch loadings ranging from 10-15% of total trailer weight. Users in this forum often point to the 80% rule of thumb or personal experience when suggesting max trailer loads. I would suggest conforming to the Passports tow limit (GCWR), payload limit (GVWR), and the minimum recommended hitch weight (10-12%) when sizing a trailer. The above numbers suggest a 2019-2021 AWD Passport carrying a family of 4 is limited to a maximum trailer load of 3,200-3,800 lbs.

 

[CC_Marauder]

While I don't really have anything to tow now, I was hoping to rent some later and was already looking at articles for best under 3000# rigs.

Guess it's primitive camping for now.

I want to get us into a used < 2k# tear drop type trailer on the right deal. They are out there.

 

[lvdukerider]

Very good info "Wrascal" posted.
You can "calculate" till your blue in the face, but if your getting that close to or over the limit you really aren't going to know how the whole rig is going to handle until it's all together, loaded up, and rolling down the road, then its kinda to the point of no return as money is already invested.
The Passport is a great vehicle but regardless of marketing capacity limits its not really ideal for heavy duty towing. Id go with a light pop up or tear drop at most or just do tent camping short of choosing a heavier duty vehicle. JMHO.

 

[Wrascal]

Lets once again try to keep it simple. The max allowable payload (which are the passengers, suitcases, pets, PLUS installed accessories like tranny cooler, tow hitch and safety chains.) are limited within that 948 pounds.

Just like adding more people - adding weight to the tongue would directly affect your payload. However so long as it all totals below that 948 pounds you're good to go - your chassis suspension, axles, tires can handle that.

Reverse logic, if your tongue weight is at the max (500 pounds) then you can only have 448 pounds of people and stuff. Conversely less tongue weight means you can add more people and luggage (beer coolers / tools) - but it is still limited to that 948 pounds.

A second concern: Any more than 500 pounds on the tongue may result in hitch failure / separation. Not good.

BUT WAIT, there's more to be considered. From the other side of things, whatever your trailer (RV, enclosed hauler) weighs, to control sway while traveling it MUST have at least 10% of its weight on the tongue. So a 5000 pound trailer properly loaded should have a tongue weight of 500 pounds (and more weight better fights sway).

But with that load you'd have a rolling weight (both loaded car and trailer) of maybe 10K pounds. I believe that exceeds Honda specs - but I'm not gonna try and chase it down / from memory I'm thinking its about 9000#. Obviously a 4K trailer improves things, 3K is even better.

Now eventually a balance is made where the Honda can safely stop the load - and when properly balanced control sway when a semi passes by.

AND ... there is more. Get an actual road scale weight to double check as the trailer manufactures have a tendency to also overlook things (like the weight of propane cylinders, 12V batteries, spare tires). Don't forget a Brake controller and harness, checking all tire pressures, etc.

 

[ThayerBrk]

Based on my experience, I question the idea that the Passport is a bad choice for towing a camper, as stated here: “they’re very poor for towing”. As outlined by other posters, knowing all the limits (not just towing capacity and tongue weight) and staying under them (75- 80% is an oft-cited figure) seems reasonable. I’ve pulled a 2,100 lb (dry weight) camper for thousands of miles with my 2020 AWD (with transmission cooler) with no issues. Maybe I’m being shortsighted and there will be problems in the future, but I’ve calculated tongue weight, cargo weight, etc. and I’m well under the limits. I agree that a significantly heavier camper might be a different story, but there are many campers available that are designed to be towed by SUVs like the Passport.

 

[ares]

I agree that a significantly heavier camper might be a different story, but there are many campers available that are designed to be towed by SUVs like the Passport.

Some camper manufacturers even tout that sedans are able to pull their products.

Should we talk about how even small cars in Europe (firsthand experience: Germany) have tow hitches and seemingly tow everything?

 

[HarveyW]

You're comparing apples to mangos. The tongue weight is the static force the trailer tongue exerts on the hitch ball. Proper trailer tongue weight can make the difference between a safe trailer towing experience and a dangerous journey.

You can have a 20k lb trailer with a tongue weight of 0 or even negative tongue weight, or you could have a 10K lb lounge weight. It all depends on how you load the trailer. In either scenario you are trying to pull too much weight with a vehicle rated to 5K lbs maximum tow weight with a 20K lb trailer.

Tongue weight is also variable depending on the type of trailer you are pulling. In the US/Canada/Mexico the typical trailer is an approximate 2/3 to 1/3 setup, meaning that 2/3rds of the trailer is in front of the trailers wheel(s) and 1/3rd behind the wheels.

In Europe and many other countries the Caravan, as they are called, are approximately 50/50 with the wheel(s) set in the middle of the trailer. That setup will change the tongue weight, however it isn't an excuse to tow a trailer over the recommended tow rating.

The important thing is to know your vehicles actual weight with cargo as well as your fully loaded trailer weight and make sure that they do not exceed the manufacturers combined recommendation. If you want to make you life easier in making sure that you tongue weight is in the proper range for safe towing, then get one of these.

Weigh Safe Drop Hitch

The only hitch with a built in scale for measuring tongue weight!

www.weigh-safe.com

I've used them for years. It is very handy for verifying you have the proper tongue weight, if you know your loaded trailers weight.